Curse

Matfei · Sep 27, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I haven't joined a PUG since heroes were introduced... Even before then I usually opted for hench or guildmates.

Vinraith · Sep 27, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

Yeah I know PUGs have always been suspect. But with the now absolutely rotten post-NF PUG quality, new players are immersed in leeching, bad attitudes, chaotic groups, conflict, and repeated in-game failures. More than ever before anyway...

I see your point, but I'm not sure heroes are really to blame for the gradual decline in mature play you're seeing. It seems that, in most online games, there's a gradual shift from a sense of community (presumably fostered by newness, since no one knows what they're doing) in the early days to divisive and childish behavior as they age. Since this happens in games that don't even have heroes, or anything like them, I've got to question causation.

The end result certainly sucks, though, I'll give you that.

bwillcox · Sep 27, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Well, as has been stated many times, whether or not you want to play in a PuG is a personal, subjective choice. I will occasionally join a PuG in areas that I'm unfamiliar with, but saying that the addition of heroes has been the downfall of PuGs is a significant over simplification in my opinion. As others have said, PuGs are in decline for many reasons. The ability to have heroes, for me, kept me playing the game. W/o them I would have quit along time ago.

Yandawar · Sep 27, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

I'm a new (10 months) / inexperienced (300 hours) / poor (oh, no, no longer, as I sold a green for 65k a couple of months ago) player. I've finished 90% of Nightfall with heroes/henchies, and am working on the remaining 10%. (Not far enough along yet in Factions/Prophecies to say anything about them.)

Every so often, I ponder joining a PUG. Then I browse around on this forum, and see people moaning about other PUG players not running with all of their favorite skills. I know I would be one of those players. I don't want to be a human bot playing their ideal cookie cutter build. I don't want to justify my choices and be ranted about here on this forum. Instead, I just want to have fun, and to experiment with weird and quirky combinations of skills, slowly for myself figuring out what works and what doesn't, even if that means I kill monsters 10% less efficiently. I have the bad luck of having started playing the game now, when there is "accepted 'wisdom'" for what works and what doesn't, rather than two years ago when everybody was in my position and fun was still regularly had.
And so I'm yet another person who's not part of the ever smaller pool of available PUGers. And the effect heroes have had upon me is not to "rob" me of experienced players to learn from, but rather to allow me to play GuildWars free from verbal abuse, at my own pace. Every so often I stop to marvel at the awesome scenery and sigh happily for having chosen to play this awesome game.

If any other new, inexperienced and (not necessarily) poor players without preconceived notions of how the game should be played would someday like to team up for some of the harder missions, and happen to actually catch me online, give me a whisper.

As far as a solution to this all goes, I can't help but to remember snowball arena, and what fun I had playing there. Everyone got in at ground level, and slowly, together, we started to learn new tactics. I suspect a lot of the fun comes from playing with people who're just as far along in learning the game as you are. It might be a suggestion for GW2 to group people together not by region, language or randomly per district, but rather by total number of played hours per account. Give the option to breach this in order to play with your friends, of course, but by default, let new and inexperienced players hang out together, and let old and experienced (and jaded?) players hang out together, and watch peace and harmony flourish for a thousand centuries.

Mineria · Sep 27, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

All the pug vs heroes whining makes me wonder, how the heck did we manage it in WoW...
Oh yeah, I forgot, that game is for noobs..

SeraCombi · Sep 27, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

there's a marked difference in Cantha now when taking a new character through.

many missions are very silent, only a couple people milling about, no chatter...maybe one person lfg. kind of depressing, but often all you need is one other real player to mean the difference between success and failure in a mission...so it's not as bad as it seems

fortunately i've procured some heroes, so my little Sin is not stressing. enjoying doing the quests and missions actually.

Mohnzh · Sep 27, 2007, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I would have to agree that PUG quality was dropping before the introduction of heroes. Heroes may have accelerated it, but as people became more experienced and starting making their connections with guilds and friends, PUGs became less used. Heroes were introduced to fill the gap. Now, all those inexperienced players are facing what the rest of us faced when the game was new: figuring it out for yourself. I only PUGed my way through Cantha because of the time based masters req. I could easily beat every mish on my own, but not quickly enough.

Back when the game was new, I PUGed a lot in Tyria because nobody knew how to do things, and if you were lucky you got one or two people who did. If you didn't, you would figure out what worked well and what didn't, adjust, and try again. What I see is that PUG quality has returned to what it was when the game was new. The quality steadily improved all the way into the middle of the factions era, then started dwindling. Now it is back to what it was like when the game was first released. Heroes may have accelerated the process, but it was going to happen with or without heroes. Heroes just enabled us to go ahead and start playing well and avoiding the diminishing quality of PUGs. New players can still get really good the same way we did. Trial and error, having fun, creating wacky builds that work 1% of the time, and not worrying about anyone criticising them for it because the heroes don't care.

Saphrium · Sep 27, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

I hate henchies because they are really really dumb.

I hate heroes because they really destroy the PUG community, and the worst thing is, a lot of the people who plays heroes don't even know how to flag them correctly. I mean heroes really helps you to understand the importance of positioning. But most people just use their heroes like a swarm of meat bags.

Etta · Sep 27, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphrium

I hate heroes because they really destroy the PUG community,

So...the pugers do have a community after all, is that mean they can pugs all day long and it doesnt really matter if the rest of us can use 7 heroes or not?
How many people are there in this pug community anyway?

KANE OG · Sep 28, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I remember my newbie days at ThK. Three Guildies checking out six districts to find two Monks for one hour. I'll take my Talkhora anytime.

KANE

Zubrowka · Sep 28, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by cebalrai

1) The quality of PUGs is now abysmal compared to the pre-Nightfall era. Joining PUGs is huge headache, and often a waste of time

At any given time there're probably seven people somewhere in the world who'd want to do a quest you need to do. The problem is, the party search feature is basically retarded.

Quote:

2) New/inexperienced/poor players are getting much less exposure to skilled players. Their learning opportunities are few and far between.

The so-called experienced players are basically losers with nothing better to do than to play GW. The very notion that people could learn from these freaks make me sick.

Quote:

3) New/inexperienced players often find the game too difficult and become frustrated. They're stuck grouping with other subpar players. The game has become far less friendly to new players than it ever has been.

That's why there are heroes and henchmen. They're better than any human player.

Again, the very thought of playing with some pimple-faced dork makes me want to puke. Losing in GW means nothing. Seeing real-life losers strutting around as though they're somebody makes me feel dirty.

Quote:

4) The social aspect of the game has been scaled back. Not just because 90% of the time the only person people have to talk to in their party is Dunkoro. But because people aren't joining PUGs, meeting new folks, learning new things, and making the spontaneous connections like they used to.

Well, what what do you expect from a game that's become dominated by dorks? Why on earth would I want to have any social interaction with people who oughta be ostracized?

Anet's willingness to cater to more pathetic segment of the player-base is the root of the problem. Dorks are dorks, even in a virtual world. A bunch of socially inept people aren't going to create a viable community.

Marverick · Sep 28, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

It's not that PuGs are just inexperienced, they are

1. UNWILLING to learn. Go try giving advice to that mending wammo or the monk spamming healing breeze or the necro playing a "<--VAMPIRE". They'll just yell at you for the rest of the time you group together and you'll eventually leave. Which brings us to...
2. They are arrogant little immature or lifeless bastards who bitch and moan and put the blame on everyone else when something goes wrong because they think they are l33t and everyone else is stupid.
3. Mentally deficient. It's a simple game, that's all, and if you can play for 100 or more hours and still suck then something is wrong with you, and not just with your gaming abilities. You don't need to spend that long to get good, it's not one of those games where you have to spend 50 hours alone learning to dogfight and drop bombs accurately or something.

Arguing and moaning isn't really defined as social interaction, you know, and that's all that occurs in PuGs. And if you play games for the purpose of social interaction then really... get a life.

Karia Mirniman · Sep 28, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zubrowka

At any given time there're probably seven people somewhere in the world who'd want to do a quest you need to do. The problem is, the party search feature is basically retarded.

The so-called experienced players are basically losers with nothing better to do than to play GW. The very notion that people could learn from these freaks make me sick.

That's why there are heroes and henchmen. They're better than any human player.

Again, the very thought of playing with some pimple-faced dork makes me want to puke. Losing in GW means nothing. Seeing real-life losers strutting around as though they're somebody makes me feel dirty.

Well, what what do you expect from a game that's become dominated by dorks? Why on earth would I want to have any social interaction with people who oughta be ostracized?

Anet's willingness to cater to more pathetic segment of the player-base is the root of the problem. Dorks are dorks, even in a virtual world. A bunch of socially inept people aren't going to create a viable community.

Oh dear, he's forgotten to take his pills again.

Improvavel · Sep 28, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

The OP has one thing wrong.

Before being good at the game, every single of those players that go with guildies and heroes, had to pug and learn to do it on their own.

Heroes just made the life of those that already know how to play much more easier.

New players just need to work hard as the ones that are now experienced and have well established guilds/friends lists did before.

And its not like they dont get a chance.

Guild groups that are short 1 or 2, might grab 1 or 2 random dudes for some area. Guilds recruit new members all the time that are very inexperienced.

These new players only need to have an acceptable mindset, be ready to learn and be pleasant with those that are using their time to teach them.

One of my best guildwars friends, was a person that didnt knew anything about guildwars, as much that while trying to kill the doppleganger with her necro with Insidious Parasite an Price of Failure, that person whisped me that it didnt worked, and then I discovered that she actually handnt cast the spells!!!!!

But since that person was a pleasure to play with and very funny, I took my time with her, and I will take her nowadays with our heroes/henchies to any area and success.

PPl just need to know their limits. If someone knows more then them, listen. If they are the ones that know more take the lead.

Karia Mirniman · Sep 28, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

3. Mentally deficient. It's a simple game, that's all, and if you can play for 100 or more hours and still suck then something is wrong with you, and not just with your gaming abilities. You don't need to spend that long to get good, it's not one of those games where you have to spend 50 hours alone learning to dogfight and drop bombs accurately or something.

Next week Marverick will be leaving pre-searing.

thor hammerbane · Sep 28, 2007, 03:19 AM // 03:19

2 Words, Bad Experience.
If i know the person just wants some honest help and some build ideas, I will go and help them; Because of the bad experiences I have had, and i do mean horrendous (sp?), I stay away from most pugs. It's the 10% of the population that are jerkoffs like the scenarious mentioned here that ruined the game, not NF.

Abbel Calima · Sep 28, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Ussually i only do missions with h/h or guildies, but if a player seeks help i'm more than happy to let them join. It's a shame that newbies must go through a game with hench only and if they can't beat a certain mission, they will most likely quit the game.

In the older days, those mission where so packed with players that everyone could join a team, but now with Nightfall and EotN being released there hardly any players around, especially in Factions. This makes me sad..

gloria vander belt · Sep 28, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

this thread makes me laugh, i started under 4 months ago, and had no idea what i was doing, and having done it with henchies up to Hell's Precipe missions and bonus(til i got NF) i learned more about the game, where as i know a player who has played for over 8 months and im way ahead of her due to her cluelessness from using pug parties, ur not gonna learn Missions and Bonus

bungusmaximus · Sep 28, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

I have room for 3 heroes, so when I'm going to do a mission there is room for 4 more players. Theyre always welcome to hop on as long when they need the mission as long as they follow instructions and don't waste my time. In return they usually get masters reward for w/e kind of mission. win/win situation, and with my current hero setup, loss is not an option anyway.

In such a case my heroes only help people instead of holding them back.

~ Dan ~ · Sep 28, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

It's usually the fact that noobs just don't want to learn, and argue that their shitty build, is valid. It takes going on here or wiki, getting a build, and learning from mistakes to become a better player. It doesn't take skilled players to hold their hands. Hell, there's even a walkthrough for EVERY mission and EVERY quest on guildwiki. It's not hard to find out these sites.

Imo the majority of these bad players lack common sense and the ability to learn / listen, which is why i refuse to join PUGS.